tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post359462007423300090..comments2023-10-09T12:07:17.858-04:00Comments on Lakewood Falling Down: And Tonight is Ladies Night!Lakewood Falling Downhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14483392684657880997noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-12316579332952028692009-07-21T08:10:26.336-04:002009-07-21T08:10:26.336-04:00LFD: Going back 2500 years, women used to "le...LFD: Going back 2500 years, women used to "lein" and get aliyot (within the framework of a general minyan...back then when an aliya laTorah included leining as well, not just birkot haTorah)<br /><br />The gemara states that eventually women stopped getting aliyot because of "Kavod Hatzibbur". The gemara doesn't list "kol isha" as an issue at all.<br /><br />And as to what "Kavod Hatzibur" means...perhaps the women could lein better than men?<br /><br />I agree with Saul though -- there is no such thing as women's "minyan", rather a WTG.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-53499781169089614352009-07-16T20:31:52.498-04:002009-07-16T20:31:52.498-04:00SAUL:
even i have my limits
LDF:
"How do y...SAUL:<br /><br />even i have my limits<br /><br />LDF:<br /><br />"How do you work the kol isha thing when the women daven Kabalas Shabbos?"<br /><br />the same way you work it for women singing zemirot or saying kaddish. kol isha is not an issue when the שכינה is present<br /><br />as far as aliyot goes, the only classic (i.e., in the gemara) objection to women getting aliyot is that it violates כבוד הצבור (of course people who accept women's aliyot argue that כבוד הצבור has been redefined)<br /><br />for something interesting, see what the hagahot maimoniyot says about what to do for aliyot in a community of only kohanim. (iirc, its he is brought down in the shulhan aruckh, but the view is rejected. nonetheless, it's interesting because it gives you an idea of how tiny many of the communities in ashkenaz were. i.e., a community of only kohanim meant the community was composed of only 2 or 3 interrelated familes of kohanim)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-19481792559043285152009-07-16T18:10:00.785-04:002009-07-16T18:10:00.785-04:00Yes there's a partnership minyan in Brooklyn, ...Yes there's a partnership minyan in Brooklyn, it takes place once a month. (next should be August 7th) Last week Friday night there were 15 women and 9 men -1 boy. Two of the men who frequent the minyan were out of town. They found a Yeshivish man off the street to complete the minyan. We had finished Kabalat Shabat. I'm sure later that night, our Yeshivish minyan helper had something to share with his family.gr8twins 1 &2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06718758496203138173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-87704556235841780932009-07-16T16:55:10.035-04:002009-07-16T16:55:10.035-04:00Is there a partnership minyan in Brooklyn? I know...Is there a partnership minyan in Brooklyn? I know a few are in Manhattan. <br /><br />AIUI, Kol Isha does not apply to tefilah.mameehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463850389414520979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-50598174788008162582009-07-16T16:52:38.585-04:002009-07-16T16:52:38.585-04:00E-also, I didn't realize it was a split experi...E-also, I didn't realize it was a split experience. From the way it sounded, it sounded like the men were excluded. How do you work the kol isha thing when the women daven Kabalas Shabbos? Is it kol isha if you can't see the girl? I don't know enough to know the answer.Lakewood Falling Downhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483392684657880997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-56800237327465450782009-07-16T16:49:37.414-04:002009-07-16T16:49:37.414-04:00E-Thank you for clarifying. I hope I didn’t misun...E-Thank you for clarifying. I hope I didn’t misunderstand or misrepresent what you told us, and I’m glad it was a good experience. I really wanted to hear more about it!Lakewood Falling Downhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483392684657880997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-74355435837250299372009-07-16T14:58:25.455-04:002009-07-16T14:58:25.455-04:00M, you're pushing the envelope. This update is...M, you're pushing the envelope. This update is for you. <br /><br />Last Friday Night, I Davened at a "Partnership Minyan": Women lead Kabalat Shabbat and men lead Maariv. The room was divided by a Mechitzah. The lady who led Kabalat Shabbat, stood behind the mechitzah, not at the Amud, it was modest, inclusive and beautiful. <br /><br />As for the WTG = women tefilah groups, we women daven together, read the torah, which include aliyot, (Birchat Hatorah is said then, some skip saying during bircat hashachar) and like your friend "The Lion of Zion" wrote, we are davenning in a group. <br /><br />"I" think that within the boundries of Orthodox Judiasm there is a place for women, to voice their spiritual need to be a part of tefilah.gr8twins 1 &2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06718758496203138173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-80059880327384111252009-07-16T14:32:29.175-04:002009-07-16T14:32:29.175-04:00assuming that it is a WTG, she is doing herself &a...assuming that it is a WTG, she is doing herself & women a huge disservice by calling it a minyan. WTG is considered fringe. Women's minyan is conservative or reform.mameehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463850389414520979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-69800583396680184422009-07-16T14:30:39.448-04:002009-07-16T14:30:39.448-04:00Lion, a guy who can show up to a Chasidishe shteib...Lion, a guy who can show up to a Chasidishe shteible in sandals & a shirt can find something too weird ? :)<br /><br />Yes, the birchas Hatorah & leining are real issues. Another one is should a women forgo the dvarim she bekidusha (borechu, kaddish & kedusha) at a regular minyan to daven at a WTG.mameehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463850389414520979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-23288299241404003232009-07-16T14:29:12.490-04:002009-07-16T14:29:12.490-04:00Gilmour- As long as the cholent comes out hot.
Sau...Gilmour- As long as the cholent comes out hot.<br />Saul- E said it was a "Minyan", and that she got called up to make Birchas HaTorah. Truthfully,I don't know the halachic parameters, but I myself find it weird. The "minyan" excludes men, for I guess lots of reasons. I know a woman can say kaddesh for a releative if needed. I think that those women who feel the need to be on the side of the mechitzah where everything goes on don't realize how much they don't have to contend with, such as finding a good b'al tefillah, tzedakah collectors, appeals, bidding on yom tov, and kiddish clubs. I would go to an all womens kiddush club though...<br />Lion, it must have been really weird.Lakewood Falling Downhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483392684657880997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-64623505006350099412009-07-16T14:13:56.863-04:002009-07-16T14:13:56.863-04:00the "grass is always greener . . ." appl...the "grass is always greener . . ." applies to intellectual pursuits as well<br /><br />saul is correct about the distinction between a tefilah group and a minyan. i don't think in the tefillah groups they say דברים שבקושה. iirc, the big מחלוקת, as far as those who support the tefillah groups are concerned, is what to do with ברכות התורה<br /><br />but what's the big deal about women's tefillah groups? aside from a few things (i.e., the problem with ברכות התורה?), what are they doing that isn't going on in every bais yaakov? don't 3rd grade girls daven together as a group?<br /><br />on my trip to israel last year i accidentally ended up in a very unusual minyan as far as women's participation goes. i ended up leaving in the middle. aside from halakhic issues that came up in the middle, it was just too weird. even for me.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-36447485171261626842009-07-16T14:12:44.261-04:002009-07-16T14:12:44.261-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-75937976446243096902009-07-16T13:52:12.801-04:002009-07-16T13:52:12.801-04:00Do you mean a Women's Tefila Group? WTG push t...Do you mean a Women's Tefila Group? WTG push the envelope (many would say, are beyond the pale). A Ladies Minyan is beyond the pale. Within halacha there is no such thing as a minyan that has women in it.mameehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463850389414520979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3353533543996420432.post-87979139756174186972009-07-16T13:25:34.077-04:002009-07-16T13:25:34.077-04:00I think a "Ladies Minyan" is fine and da...I think a "Ladies Minyan" is fine and dandy - as long as they are behind the mechitza and there are men in the front of the shul to run things properly al pi halachah...the women need to have someone to serve the kiddush to, after all! I Guess I haven't been here long enough to change my Flatbush (which I hate again) ways. Save some cholent for us!Gilmournoreply@blogger.com