Monday, December 1, 2008

See you next time

I was learning about a story where Moshe "sees" Hashem attaching the crowns to the letters of the Torah. He asks Hashem what he is doing and what they are. Hashem tells Moshe that there will be a man named Rabbi Akiva who will learn out many halochos from the crowns. Hashem tells Moshe to "turn around" and Moshe is in Rabbi Akiva's shiur. He gets upset because he doesn't understand the shiur, until he hears Rabbi Akiva say that he knew the halachos from Moshe from Sinai. Now, all of the other questions aside, I want to know, did moshe hear the shiur, or did he actually time travel?


Child Ish Behavior said...

It was time travel for sure.

But only because I like SciFi.

I have a bigger question once we are on the SciFi angle, did Moshe interrupt the class or did he sit by as the argued the point?

Lakewood Falling Down said...

CIB- My guess is that he didn't interrupt. You never can tell, maybe Rabbi Akiva was one of those "don't interrupt my shiur with silly questions" kind of teachers. I don't think Moshe had time for detention after class, so hedging his bets, he probably kept quiet.

The Babysitter said...

omg, this is so cool!

I just had to read this for HW and to write a summary of it.

I didn't even think of that question, I just figured Hashem like showed him an image of R' Akiva and his students learning. Kinda like what I believe it will be like after 120 when we see our lives, what we have done.

Also, it says after that Moshe asked to see what R' Akiva's reward was, and Hashem said turn around, and then he saw R' Akiva's flesh being weighed in the market place. Then Moshe asks how that can be the reward, and Hashem said "be silent! that is how I decided" (or something like that). That part struck me, and I was thinking about the India thing, and then this is the answer, Hashem has His ways and we can't question, even if it may seem to not make sense.

Anyways, so there also it was an image.

From the way I understand it, it wasn't an interactive image. Moshe just saw them, he didn't argue with them. He just heard them arguing and it went over his head and he couldn't understand it.

(I know this is more a for fun kind of post. But it was my first time learning this, so I found it really cool to see it in a post that same day, I even remember where it's from, it's from Manachot 4.6 I think)

Lion of Zion said...


nu, so what does this say for the doctrine of ירידת הדורות?

incidentally, iirc (some of?) the oldest extant ספרי תורה lack תגין. (and not that this should be considered representative of "normative" judaism, i once rolled all the way through a centuries-old chinese ספר תורה without תגין)

Lakewood Falling Down said...

Babysitter- You got right it's from it's from Manachos! Glad to see you learning such interesting stuff, and I'm glad you enjoyed. I did learn it in it's entirety (mostly)with meforshim, and it's still a lot to digest. Here's to Sci Fi!
Lion- Maybe the people writing those sifrei Torah knew the Halachos from Moshe Mi'Sinai already and left them off. Like deleting a commentary to save space.

Lion of Zion said...

but this doesn't explain the ירידת הדורות problem.

if every generation (ostensibly at least) knows less than the previous generation, how is it that rabbi akiva knew more in this matter than moshe rabeinu?

Child Ish Behavior said...

LOZ: The ירידת הדורות only started happening later. It is a technical thing that says who can "legally" argue with whom. And which deductions can be made by whom. (or at least I think so.)

DavenedByDeKoisel said...

Fascinatin' stuff !! Babysitter: you really knocked it outa the park...

LFD & LOZ: There is a concept of a few in each generation who are comparable to many gen's earlier in knowledge and piety(e.g. Chofetz Chaim etc..)

DavenedByDeKoisel said...

CIB: you were meant to be included in the above comment. Good get on the timing thing !!

The Babysitter said...

Lakewood Falling Down: cool, Yay, I got it right! (Although I wasn't sure how it's said in Hebrew, since the sheet I read it from had it translated in English, and it said Menhaot there, so I was wondering.)

Thanx! and yea, it does seem like a lot to digest.

Lion Of Zion: from what I understand, it was just different generations, different types. During Moshe's time there was no Rabbinic age, where they darshuned stuff. He just gave the Written Torah, and Oral Torah which can be the 13 principles of R' Yishmael or the actual whole thing. If it's just the 13 principles, then it makes sense, that Moshe hadn't known what R' Akiva was saying.

Moshe was still the greatest Navi, and he had a direct connection with Hashem, so he had to be greater than R' Akiva. Just that he hadn't gone as in depth in learning the Torah as R' Akiva. It's only later on, after R' Yochanon Ben Zakkai that Torah study become a big thing.

It's actually very interesting, cause by the Story of R' Akiva going off to learn for 12 years, and then going back for another 12, it seems like a great thing, and shows the greatness of Kollel. But then after that story is another one where a Rabbi made a deal to learn for 6 years and returned after 3 to his wife, and his wife was then referred to a zona or a yona. According to the Yona one, it shows that he shouldn't have left her for so long, and should have been more concerned for her, that family is priority.

See how much Torah I'm learning at college, it's so cool!

DavenedByDeKoisel: Thanx!