Tuesday, November 4, 2008

You Bad Hot Chanie!


While reading Rav Elyashiv's comments about sheitels on YWN, I felt annoyed. Lion of Zion pointed out to me the following:
"hakham ovadia yosef has already assured all sheitlach. period. it seems some ashkenazim now are just catching up to this (wouldn't want the sephardim to seem frumer.) on the other hand, iirc the lubavatcher rebbe said sheitlach are preferred, because a woman is likely to take it off than a hat. gluckel of hameln (17th c. ashkenaz) writes in her memoirs that she was impressed with the frumkeit of the men when she moved to metz because they didn't wear wigs (or something like that, it's been a while since i read her book)"
Comments anyone?

32 comments:

davenedbydekoisel said...

Forget about the sheitel issue,I have to issue a KOL KOREI against your choice of illustration for this post!! A SHANDA!!!! But I digress, to be yotzeh kol hadaios wear a sheitel covered by a pillbox hat and may you be zochech to a little slice of gan eden v'nomar AMEN !!!!

asclock@aol.com said...

a

Tr8erGirl said...

Honestly, I happen to agree......I mean, if the point is tzinios, the sheitelach today don't seem to be....but then again, maybe its just me. I grew up in a very conservative, frum home and went to a very conservative (yet feminist, if that makes sense) girls' school. My mother (and the principal of my HS) were anti-sheitel and didn't wear them, rather stuck with hats or teichels.

As an aside - I have very curly, kinky hair that I HATED when I was growing up (Ive since made peace with it). When I was a child, the ONLY reason to get married, in my mind, was to cover my hair!

Lakewood Falling Down said...

tr8tergirl, yes some girls just want an excuse to cover up. My problem is that so much time money and real effort is put in by women who are trying to be tznius. Tell me this 10 years ago before we spent money on something that is a mitzvah. My wife will not let me speak against the Rov, but my feeling is that this is chumras gone wild. This isn't what's keeping us in galus.

Out-of-towner said...

on the one hand, i understand why people think sheitels aren't adequate...but on the other, i don't think its fair to shriek at women like that. i've been told too many times that i should never wear a hat or a tichel to a job interview because it's "not professional". there are too many people telling what i should do and why, and now i don't even know what i actually think.

Mrs. Lakewood Falling Down said...

one of the most difficult mitzvos for me has always been covering my hair. No one in my immediate family including grandparents did. I chose to based on a class i had in HS named WIJL (women in jewish law) which covered all pertinent halachos. I happen to LOVE my curly hair and to this day 11 Years and going have difficulty putting something on my head. However, i always thought the idea is to cover your erva. I can understand how 10,000 dollar shaitels are not exactly doing the trick of saving your beauty (hair) for your husband but maybe this should have been mentioned a few years ago as shaitels became more beautiful and then perhaps work out a solution rather just an outright don't wear it. because NOW WHAT???

Lion of Zion said...

LFD:

just saw this post
http://parsha.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-reaction-to-rav-elyashivs-latest.html
follow the link to rav moshe

"so much time . . . is put in by women who are trying to be tznius."

good. keeps them out of trouble

"My wife will not let me speak against the Rov"

rav elyashiv or her own rav?
(and can you please start a new blog that she doesn't know about)

MRS. LFD:

"maybe this should have been mentioned a few years ago as shaitels became more beautiful"

see the above link.

i forgot you had curly hair.

Tr8erGirl said...

"(and can you please start a new blog that she doesn't know about)"

personally, I think Mrs. LFD should have HER own blog! She always has interesting things to say!
:-)
Curly Girls Unite!

Lion of Zion said...

"Mrs. LFD should have HER own blog!"

no way. she'd get addicted and then wouldn't have time to cook her famous shabbat meals.

Logic613 said...

This is a very sensitive subject. I have yet to meet a girl who enjoys covering their hair. At the same time, I do agree with the Rav on a practical level. I also am worried that there will be a point where frum woman will say, "Enough already! First you tell me to cover my hair, then I cover it, then you told me the hair in my shaitel is not good, so I bought new ones, now you're telling me that there is no point to me wearing them anyway?!?! #@$# this @##$!"

We need to be selective about what we are picky on in this generation. Most of Bnai Yisroel cannot tolerate chumra after chumra being forced down our throats. Let's work on Loshon Hora or davening B'kavana before we get to the shaitel issue.

mrs. lakewood falling down said...

LOZ- First of all no he can't get a new blog that i don't know about. I enjoy reading his blog. I was referring to speaking poorly about rov elyashiv. But truthfully any rov should be held in the highest regard and be respected. Thanks for the compliment. You'll have to come again soon.

Tr8ergirl- Thank you very much!!! I like commenting on blogs not blogging.

logic613- I am pround to know you!!! Your comment is great!

Lion of Zion said...

MRS LFD:

"But truthfully any rov should be held in the highest regard and be respected."

i'm rolling my eyes so much it hurts.

"You'll have to come again soon."

better be soon, because i'm not going to stop rolling my eyes until we come again.

Logic613 said...

I think Mrs. LFD should spoke when spoken to, right LFD?

hehehe.

Mrs. Lakewood Falling Down said...

LOZ-Come for this shabbos lunch. We are having a another great guest that you would really like.

logic613-hey! you be nice.

Ben-Yehudah said...

B"H

Sheitlach are evil artifacts of Jewish attempts at assimilation in the Ashkinazy world.

Sephardim didn't have that problem, nor the problem with eruvim which Ashkinazim had to develop combinoth for upon leaving the ghetto {where eruvim were easy to make} Thus, Rav Ovadiah doesn't have to bat an eyelash to know they're wrong.

We see the same thing amongst "American Haredim" and others, with the long sheitelach, short skirts and tight blouses.

The only mahloqeth is whether it's because of the women who feel they have to keep us with the Schwartzes, or it's the men who have to show off their arm candy,...which of course has no business being on his arm in the street anyway.

mekubal said...

Actually Rav Ovadiah Yosef has a little more support for his position than what is quoted from R' Eliyahiv. I have R' Ovadiah's full Teshuva around here somewhere...(looks at drawers full of such interesting tidbits), but to sum up, it essentially stems from an Amoraic statement made in Masechta Shabbat, as well as several places the Yerushalmi, "Isha sheloveshet b'Peot Nocri, he cmo nocri." or in English, a women that wears a wig made of non-Jewish hair(and yes wearing wigs made of Jewish hair is also ossur) is the same as a non-Jew." Based on that harsh statement as well as the problems of tzniut that come from the "realistic" nature of wigs were the basis of his psak. Though I must also say that he is not a Daat Yahid. The Sephardi gedolim through the ages have called wigs ossur.

It is very hard to describe R' Ovadiah as chumradik. When I received my semicha from him he made us all promise to find every way to be makil, his words, "If you plan on making or adhereing to chumras leave now you will not get my semicha..." He is after all the posek that says you can drink coffee in any coffee shop with out worry to Kashrut.

Deborah Shaya said...

I am writing to inform you that there is No codified Halacha that a married woman must cover her hair totally and constantly whenever she steps out of her house.

The Halachah has been MISinterpreted.The true interpretation of the Halachah is as follows:

A married woman is required to cover her hair when she lights the candles to welcome in Shabbat and Yom Tov – lechavod Shabbat ve Yom Tov - and when she goes to the Synagogue, because that is the place of Kedusha.

The Halacha does not require anything more from married women.

This misinterpretation of the Torah is completely Assur, and a TWISTING of the Torah.The Torah must remain straight.

In ancient times, a woman would only cover her hair upon entering the Beit Hamikdash.Similarly for the Sotah-otherwise she would not be required to cover her hair ordinarily, day to day.
It is very important for people to know and realise that when a married woman covers her hair with 'Real Hair' the woman is covering herself with 100% Tumah. This is totally against the Torah.

Nothing could be more nonsensical than for a Jewish woman to cover her hair with someone else's hair -who was not Jewish as well!She can never fully be sure that this 'hair' has not come from meitim-despite any guarantee by the seller.This 'real hair' is doubly and in some circumstances, triply Tumah.
1.It will contain the leftover dead hair cells from another person - however much it has been treated, the tumah is still there.
2.This other person (likely to be a non-Jew who most likely was involved in some kind of Avodah Zarah) may have eaten bacon, ham, lobster etc, all of which are totally forbidden as unclean and non-kosher foods in Halacha.
3.If the woman happens to be the wife of a COHEN, then she is bringing her husband into close contact and proximity with meitim and Tumah Every day, and throughout their married life. This is clearly strictly against the Torah.
There is nothing more degrading and demeaning to a woman than to make her cover her hair FOR LIFE upon marriage.Frankly it is an abhorrent practice.

Any man who makes such a ridiculous demand on his wife, or wife-to-be, should similarly also be required by his wife to wear: long white socks, even in the summer; a fur streimel; grow a long beard; wear a black hat and coat constantly, and cover his face when he speaks to his wife.Wigs were merely a fashion item in the time of Louis XIV-they are not for the Jewish woman!

Rabbi Menachem Schneeersohn tz”l, was unfortunately wrong in this instance.He gave the directive that a married woman must cover her head with a “sheitel.”This needs to be corrected.Rabbi Schneersohn a"h, was a Tzaddik, – but on this – he was, unfortunately not correct.

It is extremely unhealthy and unhygienic for a woman to cover her hair constantly.The hair needs oxygen to breathe.A woman's hair will lose its natural beauty and shine, she may have scalp problems, some of her hair may fall out, she may get headaches, and she may end up cutting it short like a man, when she always wore it long, in order not to have too much discomfort from her hair covering.

Do you think that HaKadosh Baruch Hu commanded this of women? I can assure you that He did not.

The commmandments are not meant to cause so much repression and oppression in women.Was Chava created with a wig? Of course not! Did she start wearing a wig? Of course not!

Not a single “dayan” or “rabbi” has the slightest bit of interest in correcting the situation for the women. Therefore, the women will have to correct the situation for themselves.
Most of the "dayanim" and "rabbis" of today are not the “holy wise men and sages” they would like you to believe they are.Most of them could not be further from the Torah. Some of the "well-known mekubalim" are actually frauds and are after only one thing:MONEY. That is the only God they adhere to.

Please Wake Up.

And use the spark of intelligence that Hakadosh Baruch Hu gave to you and blessed you with.

And give your wig back to your husband if you wear one.

Ben-Yehudah said...

I am writing to inform you that there is No codified Halacha that a married woman must cover her hair totally and constantly whenever she steps out of her house.

Typical. No citing of sources.

I don't why I'm letting a women {one who has no business in this area of decision making} get my goat,...but so be it.

For those of us holding by the Ramba"m, there is most certainly support for even unmarried women to cover their hair in public. The question is whether redidh is a veil or simply a second covering {Hil. Ishuth 24}.

I doubt you'll want to know how many times per month and when the Ramba"m allowed women out of the home.

I do not doubt that you'll some typically clever M/O type statement about how the Ramba"m was relating to his time and place only.

Sorry, but you've got

You are right that a woman does not have to cover her hair inside her house. I suggest you check Avoth d'Rabbi Nathan, the story of Rabbi Yishmael as Kohen Gadol, and the comments of his mother, as you seem to be one of those women who insists on learning such texts.

Say hello to Avi Weiss, Donnie Hartman, and Blu Greenberg for me.

{sigh}

Deborah Shaya said...

Ben-Yehuda,

The Halachah has been MISinterpreted. It is not being interpreted correctly, and the Torah is being Twisted.

The true interpretation of the Halachah is as follows:

A married woman is required to cover her hair when she lights the candles to welcome in Shabbat and Yom Tov – lechavod Shabbat ve Yom Tov - and when she goes to the Synagogue, because that is the place of Kedusha.

The Halacha does not require anything more from married women.

Ben-Yehuda, read again what I have written. Read it, and imagine that it is you who has to wear this wig/hat - for the rest of your life - especially in a Heat Wave.

If it is beyond your imagination to imagine wearing a wig/hat constantly and in a Heat Wave, I will make a similar demand upon you. This will take you back 500 years to the age of Louis XIV and the fashion item that non-Jewish men used to wear called, "la perruque."

Furthermore, I will call it "Halacha," and I will give you pages of sources that have all twisted the Torah, and MISinterpreted the Halacha.

If you, as an intelligent Jewish man, are telling me to cover my own hair with hair - that belonged to someone else, I will tell you to do the following:

1. If you ever speak to me, make sure you cover up all of your face.

2. And make sure you are wearing long white stockings, even in the summer; a fur streimel; a long beard; a black hat and black coat all the time in all seasons.

Use the spark of Kedusha that Hashem has given to you.

You are telling me to put the hair of a non-Jewish woman who may have eaten things like snakes and sharks and alligators, and has prayed in churches, Buddist temples or Hindu temples : on my own Head. You had better wake up.

If you don't want to wake up to the truth, and the true interpretation of the Halacha, the women will wake you up - whether you like it or not.

Ben-Yehudah said...

1. You have not stated your source. {Haza"l, Ge'onim, Rishonim, etc.} Until you do I will assume you pulled this out of thin air.

Why don't you just state your source?

2. You don't have to convince me about sheitls. You will find few people more against them than I.

3. Of course I won't cover my face when speaking to you. That's not the halacha. Tssk Tssk.

Deborah Shaya said...

To Ben-Yehuda,

You are effectively asking me what the source is for you to use your common sense.

I will tell you:

We have all been created, "Betselem Elokim" - "in the image of Elokim."

This means that we have been given something called "intelligence."

The source is the very first Parsha, Bereishit - 1:27.

It is time that people use the spark of intelligence and Kedusha with which Hashem has blessed them.

With kind regards.

Ben-Yehudah said...

It's worse than I thought.

You seem to have completely disregarded Torah she'bal peh.

Jews do not discern halacha from "feelings;" we use sources which include Torah she'bal peh.

Do what you want, but don't try to pretend it's halacha.

I don't so called Reconstructionists who wouldn't even try to pull a stunt like this.

Deborah Shaya said...

Ok Ben-Yehuda,

The only thing left for me to say to you, is that you should wear a mask whenever you speak to a female, including your wife. Because I wouldn't like to look at your face unless you were wearing your mask.

And I will also bring you pages and pages of sources that will tell you that that is the Halachah - correctly interpreted.

And then you will always have to wear your mask all day to ensure that it is completely covering your face when you might speak to a female - whether you like it or not.

Ben-Yehudah said...

Still waiting for your sources...

You may "feel" that's the halacha, but you're out of luck.

Jews look at halacha according to sources.

You have NO logic to what you're saying.

I repeat. I know so called "reconstructionists" who would use better logic than you.

You have yet to address the issue I brought up regarding your regard for Torah sheb'al peh, or rather your lack of it.

Let me guess. They're irrelevant as they make up the evil foundations of the "oppressive hierarchical patriarchy."

I suppose you believe that standing under the huppah is inherently "heterosexist," too.

Deborah Shaya said...

Ben-Yehuda,

I would remind you that many righteous women influenced their husbands for the good at the Chet Haeigel and at the time of Korach.

It was these righteous women who succeeded in bringing their husbands back to their senses.

And because of these great women, the lives of their husbands were saved. Those men therefore turned away from the madness of avodah zarah, and the rebellion of Korach against Hashem's choice of Aharon as Cohen Gadol.

So please don't come and tell me to wear a WIG! Hair over my hair. This is ridiculous!

Ben-Yehudah said...

As usual you are not paying attention.

I am AGAINST sheitelach/wigs.

Hair covering, yes.

Wigs, no.

Please bother to read a comment before criticizing next time.

Deborah Shaya said...

1. To all the women who are wondering about the sources:

We have all been created, "Betselem Elokim" - "in the image of Elokim."

This means that we have been given something called "intelligence." The source is the very first Parsha, Bereishit - 1:27.

It is time that people use the spark of intelligence and Kedusha with which Hashem has blessed them.

If your rabbi will tell you to go and jump into the depths of a glacier, would you do that too – and give me a source for it?

“According to the Zohar”, I should also be covering my hair with a wig when I have a bath. “According to the Zohar and the Gemara” and all the sources that have misinterpreted the Halachah, and MIStranslated the Zohar, I should also have been born with a WIG on my head.

Those who tell me about their sources which are incorrect, should also tell me about these “translations” and these “sources.”

2.Remember that the Jewish women are very, very holy. They are much more holy than the men. Look at the exemplary behaviour of the women at Har Sinai.

The women never sinned at the Eigel, and so are greatly elevated. Many of the men, unfortunately, ran after a calf made out of a lump of gold – after they had just been given the Torah, and seen the greatest of all Revelations. The women refused to give their gold for the avodah zarah of the men.

The women were greatly elevated after such a wonderful display of Emunah, and they are regarded very highly in Shamayim.

That is why women are not even required to pray. They can pray at home on their own. Nor do women have to make up a minyan. That is how holy the Jewish women are. Men have to pray 3 times a day to remind them of their Creator.

The men are telling the women to put the hair of a non-Jewish woman who may have eaten things like snakes and sharks and alligators, and has worshipped in churches, Buddist temples or Hindu temples : on their own Heads. They had better wake up.

If the men don’t want to wake up to the truth, and the true interpretation of the Halacha, the women will wake them up – whether they like it or not.

3. Look at the Jewish women in history, and remember how holy they are.

(a) Yaakov, who was the greatest of the Avot, came to marry the 2 daughters of Lavan, Rachel and Leah. Lavan was not exactly a tzaddik. Yaakov went to Lavan, of all people, to marry his 2 daughters – not 1 daughter, but his 2 daughters. Nothing could be greater than that.

(b) Rut, who came from Moav, became the ancestor of David Hamelech.

(c ) Batya, the daughter of Paroh, was given eternal life because she rescued Moshe from the river. No one could have been more evil than Paroh.

(d) Devorah, was a Neviah, and also a Judge.

Women, who came from such adverse backgrounds, with wicked fathers – were able to become builders of Am Yisrael. That is how holy the women are, and how much more elevated they are than the men.

This was never the case with men. It never happened the other way round.

Don't tell me it is holy for me to wear a WIG! Hair over my hair. This is ridiculous!

Similarly, don’t tell me it is holy for me to plonk a permanent head covering on my head for the rest of my life. This is equally pathetic.

Please Wake Up.

Use the spark of intelligence that Hakadosh Baruch Hu gave to you and blessed you with.

And give your wig back to your husband if you wear one.

4. Remember: Not a single “dayan” or “rabbi” has the slightest bit of interest in correcting the situation for the women. Therefore, the women will have to correct the situation.................. for..................themselves.

Whether you wish to accept the correction–which is true–is up to you. Are you going to live by the truth? Are you going to use the spark of intelligence that Hashem gave to you and all women? Or are you going to follow rabbis and dayanim who tell you to wear a wig in a Heat Wave–and you thank them for it as well?

Ben-Yehudah said...

Women do not pasqen halacha.

Neither should you.

I will not say more, as the Rambam teaches one should not teach women Torah sheb'al peh. It's not their perview.

Sorry, DS, but random pesuqim from the Humash or Tanakh as a whole are not automatically considered halachic sources.

You are not working within a halachic framework.

Just admit that you have decided that for whatever reason you disagree with this, and then say whatever you want.

Deborah Shaya said...

Ben-Yehudah,

Who was Devorah? I will tell you: She was:

1. A Neviah and
2. A Judge.

So don't give me your stupidity. The Pasuk I quoted was not quoted at "random" as you wrote - exactly the opposite.

I am much more holy than you - so be very careful what you say to me.

Ben-Yehudah said...

Unbelievable! This goes beyond the pail of the current "gaivah situation."

My answer to your "Devorah is a judge" statement is that YOU are no Devorah HaNevia.

It's women like you who are delaying Geulah.

I am unsubscribing to these comments.

There's no point in continuing.

Deborah Shaya said...

Ben-Yehuda,

I will correct you: it is women precisely like me who are Bringing the Geulah.

And it is men like you - who might be delaying the Geulah.

Shanah Tovah.

William Dwek said...

The next things the "rabbis" will come up with is to tell the woman to wear a CARPET on her head. Not a sheitel AND a hat, but a Carpet. Or you could go for 5 shaitels on your heads and a rug.

And do you know what the Jewish woman will say to her husband?
"Yes, husband! I am now wearing a carpet on my head!"

You women must either be extremely thick, or petrified.